David Zolkwer is a creative director, executive producer, writer, consultant, and speaker with over 30 years in the experience industry. In this episode of ‘Behind The Experience’ we discuss the brand ideas and concepts that are emerging from the crisis, particularly in the Australian marketplace.
“Perhaps we'll see a move away from that kind of nationalistic or brand chest-beating, indulgent displays of features and benefits of places and products and how awesome things are. That move away I think is happening anyway, but we might see a more meaningful focus on the why of what brands do more than the how and the what. The why... our purpose. That's what we'll emotionally connect with.”
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Read the full interview below.
Mark Bennedick:
Thanks for tuning in to Behind The Experience. I'm your host, Mark Bennedick, co-founder and director of Sense Group here in Sydney. Today's podcast is part of our series dedicated to our COVID toolkit. The toolkit curates global experts, data analytics, and creative ideas to help brands come out the other side of this crisis stronger than ever, through the power of brand experience. For more information on that, you can visit our website at Sensegroup.com.au.
And look, for today's podcast, we're joined by the wonderful David Zolkwer. David is a creative director, executive producer, writer, consultant, and speaker with over 30 years in the experience industry. He's worked on incredible global, live, and broadcast projects, ranging from the 2004 Olympic Games in Athens, four Commonwealth Games, including Melbourne in 2006, and the Gold Coast in 2018, and the 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa, through to royal weddings, and over 10 years directing London's New Year's Eve celebrations.
David also spends a lot of his time working on events and experiences in the corporate world, with many well known brands and agencies. He splits his time between Australia and the UK, and is currently working on projects in Sydney, Doha, Dubai, and Shanghai. David, great to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for taking the time to talk today.
David Zolkwer:
Hey, Mark. Thank you.
Mark Bennedick:
Where do we find you in the world today? You're obviously doing lots of great projects all over the place at the moment. Where do we find you today?
David Zolkwer:
Right now I'm in lockdown glory in Edinburgh in Scotland.
Mark Bennedick:
Well look, maybe just a first off, just to start us off, for people that don't know you David, I mean, do you want to just give us a very brief rundown on your working career in events and experiences? And maybe just touch on the things that attracted you to the world of events.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah, for sure. I think you covered the kind of projects I've worked on in your introduction. And to be honest, I can't really claim to have set out with any particular plan or roadmap, but I guess like most of us, if I look back, it all somehow makes sense. I think the common theme to everything I've done, what really makes my day, on a good day at least, is the idea of storytelling. I think that's probably something I get from my dad, and my general upbringing.
Now, if you add into the mix the opportunity to create immersive experiences and the opportunity to, or the ambition to deliver them with beauty and meaning and skill, and if you add into the mix the idea of creating an event or being part of an event that transports audiences and perhaps transforms them in some way too, so that something is different after the experience, and if you add into the mix simply the opportunity to work with some wonderful people and extraordinary talents from all walks of life, all over the world.
Of course, it's not all like that, not by a long shot, but in very sweeping terms, and these are the kind of aspects of the work I've been lucky to do, both in the public domain and in the corporate domain, that really attract me and keep me excited about the new project, too.
Mark Bennedick:
Have you always worked in the creative field within events, or previous to that? I wonder just how have you gained that creative hat that you've been able to apply to so many amazing events around the world? Because some of these events that you've worked on are obviously global events with huge audiences, and then corporate events normally have a smaller audience, more internal facing I guess you might say. But has creativity always been part of who you are and what you've done?
David Zolkwer:
It is. But it's a large one, Mark. I guess I'm kind of... I was going to say kind of hybrid. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. When I was in education, I went to drama school for a couple of years and I did technical management. And then I went to university and studied theatre and film and literature. The idea there was that I would have a couple of years of practical training, and then three years of academic training, and I would come out of it ready to direct anything. That was the closest to a plan I've ever had.
I guess I've always been engaged in the creative process and I've always loved the process of making theatre and telling stories. But then when I turned professional, I dabbled in many aspects of theatre in particular, but also a little bit in television, working on crews, working on the technical side of life, working as an assistant or associate director, working as a show caller, working as a designer. All sorts of things that I wasn't necessarily qualified to do but it was at a time when people allowed you to give it a go and try it.
It evolved over time, and then when I went into the corporate side of life and the agency side of life, I started off as a producer and then I ... Actually, I started off as a show caller, then a coordinator, and then a producer. And then the role became a creative producer, and then it became creative director, and then sometimes it was called the artistic director. And it changes, it changes from project to project. I don't think that's unusual in our industry, so I'm not a creative in the sense that I sit down and draw or design or film.
I vacillate between being a hands-on on stage director, but also a curator as well. That's what I was talking about when I mentioned being able to work with extraordinary talents. It's an odd one. I just enjoyed the creative process, but I never found it easy to pigeonhole myself in any particular place.
Mark Bennedick:
But I think what's great about that is that you have managed to touch so many aspects of the industry that when you are coming up with ideas for things or doing show directing, I guess you have a somewhat of a grounding, a foundation and understanding of how things work. Because I think of it maybe the analogy of an architect and a builder with a house or something like that. There's always that gap in the middle between execution and the concept, and I would imagine that having then done a lot of those kinds of roles gives you the ability to come up with ideas that you know will generally kind of work.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah. To be honest, Mark, I think sometimes that works for me and for the process and sometimes not. When I'm collaborating with other creatives, I'm always trying to encourage them to not worry about practicalities. Because I think as an industry, we're great, we're really great at overcoming obstacles to delivery of realisation. I'm always keen to liberate the creatives from having to worry about the how. The what and the why are much more illusive, if you like.
So, sometimes if I'm in a meeting and someone says, "Hey, how about? Oh, no, we couldn't do that." I'm kind of concerned that we never heard what the idea was, and that there were other people around the room, creative in their own right, who love the challenge of overcoming the obstacles, whether that be physical or commercial or whatever those obstacles are.
Sometimes having that knowledge can be an encumbrance, and other times you're right, it can help the sale of an idea if you know that what you're suggesting is deliverable. If you're sharing it with people that might be cynical or skeptical.
Mark Bennedick:
What's your thinking, your motto in a way, as a creative? This podcast is part of our COVID-19 learning series and we're talking about some of the key challenges that marketers and agencies or experience designers face, and in my opinion, I guess creativity I think is going to be incredibly important moving forward. It's always been incredibly important but I think even more so in this post-COVID landscape I guess, where people might have to be doing more with less or we're having to be creative with just the way in which we can gather together. What do you think is the role of creativity during and even after COVID, and is it going to be any different do you think from before?
David Zolkwer:
Well, I think you're right. The creative process is always important, and to be honest, I think ideally the work we do is always about creativity. It always has been, whether we're talking before, during, or after COVID. I certainly find projects that I've been part of, that have been explicitly created and driven have not only incidentally been the happiest projects, but they've also been the most effective and the most successful by most criteria. My approach is, I think it's going to be important in the future. My approach has always been that everyone on the team has influence and impact on the creative.
It may not necessarily be responsible for ideation, they may not be tasked with coming up with or delivering obviously creative elements, but I would gently argue that most team members have the ability, intentionally or unintentionally, to affect the realisation of the creative vision. If you take a traditional event team structure, large or small, made up of a bunch of departments or individual roles like the technical team, production, ops team, commercial logistics and so on, the only one audiences or consumers would be interested in is creative, or at least the creative output. I think that's quite right, too.
That's a long winded way of saying yeah, creativity is going to be really important. I'm going to digress for a moment and you can cut this out of the final recording, but many years ago, I went to see Terry Gillian, the film director, Terry Gillian, who was being interviewed [inaudible] and I was lucky enough to get tickets to see him. One of the questions he was asked was when he felt he'd been the most creative. The story he told I thought was very illuminating and it stayed with me for many, many years. He was describing one of the first films he worked on which was Monty Python and the Holy Grail, and the reason the Monty Python team wanted to make the film, one of the reasons was they all wanted to get dressed up in armour [inaudible] by playing knights, just like they did when they were kids.
Mark Bennedick:
As you do.
David Zolkwer:
When it came to making the film, they didn't have the budget for the horses. One of the team came up with the idea of the coconut shells, if you recall the coconut shells in the [crosstalk]. He looked at the audience and he said, "You tell me which was the better idea." It was a really strong, recurring laugh, and a defining characteristic of this real film. It all came about because they had a problem. The idea of without generally not wanting to sound trite or insensitive, but the idea of the situation we're in now, being the mother of creative invention in the future, I think is a real one.
Mark Bennedick:
I mean, I would hazard to guess, too, the amount of creative ideas and innovation that comes through hardship over time, I would imagine is huge. I can't name one off the top of my head, but I'm just thinking of that scene, and I'm thinking it's got to be true. It is true.
David Zolkwer:
It is true. And I think as an industry, we're good at demonstrating that. Certainly I look at projects I've worked on where inevitably, certainly when you're working in the public events domain, you're constantly coming across major obstacles and setbacks and ideas that have run and run and then they get dropped for whatever reason and so on. By and large, I don't think it's just my experience but by and large, you usually end up with a solution that you kind of think, "Do you know what? It's better than it was going to be, because of this problem."
But I think the other thing I would say, and this is something I've been grappling with all the time when I'm looking at my own creative work, and taking stock, if you like, there's some sort of dynamic tension between the relationship between curating and creating. I wonder whether it's not always easy to find our own original thoughts and ideas. Often what we're doing, to genuinely think and create for ourselves, and I certainly find that I'm constantly being bombarded and challenged to curate and appropriate the views, the ideas, the systems, the toolboxes, the experiences, the work of others.
Every time we stand up with a board in front of a client and say, "Here are found images of other things like what we're talking about," we're kind of in a curatorial process. I don't think that [inaudible] inclination. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, I'm just saying that right now we have to grapple with this bombardment of people offering solutions and ideas and technology and so on. It could be that [inaudible] in terms of these existing opinions and advice and all the things I've talked about, in order to find a sense of security right now, makes absolute sense. Certainly in the short term.
But as we recover, and as we reconvene, as we come back together, I wonder if long lasting, meaningful change, and meaningful connection with audiences and consumers, I wonder whether it's going to demand some more deep and genuinely original thinking beyond what's on trend. The other challenge in all that is that I think that quest for ... All I'm talking about is when we talk about [inaudible] original creativity, that ambition if you like, and that necessity has to also be shared and demanded and supported and nurtured by the commissioners and the clients, too. They have to demand it in order for creatives and agencies and producers to deliver it.
Mark Bennedick:
I think what you're saying there is right, and as you're saying that, I'm thinking about some of the articles that I've written towards the end of last year about purpose and authenticity with brands, and there was and still is a rising trend in that area. Obviously the bushfires here in Australia gave rise to a lot of brands thinking about how we can help the people that have been through these crises? And then I think COVID has now accelerated that even further again, with a whole other set of challenges that people have been facing. I think it's only natural for brands or audiences to be looking for some sort of assurance or trust or comfort or help, because a lot of people are out there hurting not only financially, but psychologically and their businesses have stopped and all sorts of permutations of different things that have happened to different people in different ways.
I think what you're saying there is about original ideas, and I would almost connect that also to authenticity and brand purpose and it might give rise to a whole lot of creative ideas which are a little bit more deeper, not just about sell, sell, sell a product. There's a bit more behind it, and I think that's a general trend that I think the world needs to go down and is going down anyway. I mean, that's an interesting area as to how that might flourish and come to life in the next couple of months, six months, couple of years.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah, I think you're right. It's interesting. In the last, I think maybe even just yesterday, there was a poll or some research released in the UK from the Charisma Index, and that indicates that how brands have behaved during the lockdown really matters to consumers, and over, I think ... Forgive me, I haven't got the data in front of me, but I think it was over 75% of UK consumers said that how brands behave now will affect their purchasing habits in the future.
People are actually just talking about good old fashioned good behaviour and bad behaviour, and that there are hero brands who are perceived to [inaudible] integrity and they're not seen to be exploiting the prices or patronising their audience. The early indications, and who knows how it'll pan out, but the early indications are that they'll be rewarded for their good behaviour which [crosstalk] it's interesting.
Mark Bennedick:
And look, and then we've got the Black Lives Matter thing happening at the moment, too, and there's gosh, any number of crises that are happening all at the same time globally at the moment. I don't recall there being such a time where it's been like this at all. I mean, what do you think are going to be some of the key themes around creativity and experience going forward? You touched on then obviously deeper and more meaningful creativity and I'm thinking in my mind about authenticity and purpose, but you've probably spent a lot of time in lockdown with your brain ticking over. I mean, what are the things that you've been thinking about coming out the other side of this?
David Zolkwer:
I think one of the interesting challenges of the lockdown experience and interesting is perhaps too slight a word, is that many of us have found ourselves with time to look within. I don't mean that in a worthy way, just that we're spending time with ourselves, and we can perhaps hear the voices of our head more clearly and with less distraction than we normally do.
But to answer your question about themes moving forward, I think you're right. A lot depends on context and the messaging from our client storytellers, if you like. In broad terms, especially in the world of the kind of mega and hallmark events, but also in corporate communications as well.
I think and I hope there'll be less talk about the delivery mechanism, because I think that's not a problem for us. I think as an industry, we're great at delivering. I think right now, delivery is a short term preoccupation because we're having to find new ways of engaging with the audience or fast tracking new ways of engaging with audiences. But I think what the thoughts that trigger in your introduction to this particular theme was the idea that we might just need to think about rekindling our sense of purpose, and that looking at our mission, is our mission going to be to offer escapism? Like, the Hollywood spectaculars born of the Great Depression.
Or, will audiences crave more in the way of reflection and short term catharsis and connection? Perhaps now is a time where we might further explore the relationship between the obvious value of events and brands, and their fundamental purpose. Because I think audiences might now be, and I think this is correct, this is what you're saying, I think audiences might now be even more interested in that purpose, that good behaviour, that contribution.
Perhaps we'll see a move away from that kind of nationalistic or brand chest beating, indulgent displays of features and benefits of places and products and how awesome things are. That move away I think is happening anyway, but we might see a more meaningful focus on the why of what brands do more than the how and the what. The why, our purpose. That's what we'll emotionally connect with.
Mark Bennedick:
I think it's always, when you say context, it's always a very timely experience. Normally there is obviously creativity that can span generational time frames I guess, but quite a lot of awesome creative can be very timely as well and can live for a short period of time. When you talk about escapism too, I think escapism is actually an interesting one. Because I only saw something today about the level of gambling that had gone up in Australia, which had gone up by quite a significant percentage. I just thought about that when you said escapism. There's a lot of people out there trying to escape what's going on for something like gambling to go up.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah. It's interesting. It is interesting that that need for escapism isn't necessarily a healthy process. Psychologists are talking about the fact that people should allow themselves to feel awful about what's going on and that ultimately is going to be a part of the healing process. If we run away, if we hide, if we put on a brave face, if we distract ourselves from it too much, not all together, but too much, that might have mental health repercussions down the line.
It's an interesting one, because we often don't do the healthiest thing when we're trying to get away from unpleasant experiences and feelings. But I think you're right. I think when I'm feeling optimistic, I think that we'll see a desire to sustain the deeper sort of compassionate connection that has emerged across the world in recent weeks. Not just because of COVID, but also because of the other sources of unrest and disease that you've described, that have emerged as the world looks into the mirror and struggles with what it sees.
David Zolkwer:
I think you're right, that proof and authenticity and relatability and compassion and respect, good old fashioned values, good old fashioned good behaviour, these I think or at least I hope might be some of the themes preoccupying many people in the months to come. I think so, and that includes the creative world.
Mark Bennedick:
Yeah. It'd be interesting to see, I think ... I mean, I have a lot of discussions with Anthony, my business partner, we talk a lot about how much we'll come back to being the way it was before. How do we transition our business or tweak it a little bit in different direction, or things like that. We obviously face the questions that we face to ourselves, we come up with ourselves, is like well, is it going to be a permanent change? Or are people just going to snap back into normal life again, given the restrictions are lifted, so to speak, because I think the restrictions to some extent will be around for a little while. At the same time, people are very easy, or quick to forget as well.
Mark Bennedick:
It's going to be a really interesting next six months, to see how the nation and people's psyche changes, and whether they are able to forget and get on with it, or whether some of these permanent changes stay on with people's lives.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah. That's a huge existential problem for all of us, I think, is... I was watching something on television a few days ago, and it was a comedy sketch show. The first scene was at a funeral, and there was a group of people together, obviously a kind of estranged family that had all gathered for the funeral and the conversation soon came around to, "It makes you think, doesn't it? Why is it we only meet at funerals? Why don't we get together and get to know each other, and come together for the celebrations and see ourselves on good days?" And everyone nods, and of course, at the end of the funeral, they all go home and then the next scene is the next funeral, and they're all a little bit older and they have the same conversation. And it goes through time. I think there were half a dozen scenes before there were just two of them left.
I think there's some of that in what you're saying, is that somehow when people are under duress, is there a danger that it somehow brings out, as we've seen, it brings out the awesome best in people in so many ways, of random acts of kindness and compassion, and all of those sort of things. And then somehow is there a craving... Is the mission to get back to normal? As in, the way it was. Or, is it about learning from the experience and reassessing values? Which makes me sound like an old fart when I say that, but just reassessing values or the lack of values in the world.
And learning from it, and growing as a result of that. And initiating change. At the moment, it feels like anything is possible, that change is afoot, and that people are horrified by injustice and unkindness, and exploitation, and all of those sort of things. And how wonderful it would be if there was some sort of positive, if we could find some sort of positive legacy in this unprecedented experience, that as a result of it ... I don't know. I hesitate to say, "Hey, the world will be a better place and we'll all sing Kumbaya."
But there is opportunity in all of this. Again, without meaning to sound insensitive to how awful it is for so many people. There is opportunity, and it will be interesting to see whether we make the most of that opportunity or whether the mission is to get back to business as usual. And you know when you were talking before, we've been talking about our role as creatives and as agencies and so on, but actually the other... Behind anything we do there's going to be a client. So, we all need to... share the same agenda. I know that behind every great project, there's usually a great client relationship and an affinity and an alignment. We've all done projects despite clients who aren't necessarily onboard, but the really great ones, however ambitious and awesome we think we've been, there's been a client that has been ambitious and awesome to enable that to happen. I think our relationship with clients and their brands and the stories they want to tell is obviously a critical factor here. We can't unilaterally... Very few of us anyway, can unilaterally do any of the things we're talking about.
Mark Bennedick:
When you say that, I mean I previously have spoken with a lovely lady, Verity Bell, at Atlassian. She's a client that we do some work with and one of the most interesting things that she brought up actually, was that this COVID has given them the opportunity to really take some risks. The opportunity for them has been able to do things that they may not normally do, in terms of the way in which they have been motivating their staff and implementing programs for staff working at home.
And then you were saying there as well about behind every great outcome or event or experience is a great client. I guess a lot of the time I'm always thinking with clients, "How do we get them to take that risk? How do we get them to try this different path which could be so great?" But a lot of the time they can be hamstrung by look, the politics or the fear perhaps, of just doing something that may not work. What do you think about that? Is it maybe an exciting time to be a creative. You might have the opportunity to get ideas through that may not normally in other circumstances.
David Zolkwer:
I really love the optimism and positivity of that thinking. I think it's a fantastic impulse for the creative process. I think it's a fantastic impulse for every process, for all of those, on a personal and professional level. That idea that change is afoot and there's never been a time when audiences and consumers have been more open to change, even hungry for change, I think is... Again, I'm struggling to sound too effusive because I'm mindful of the awfulness of the situation, but there is a wonderful opportunity there.
Of course I feel a sense of loss for the industry and like everyone, I feel a concern for an uncertain future. But I do feel there is opportunity in the changes to come and I'm excited about the idea of all of us shaping a new normal that's informed by, and as we talked about earlier, that is really meaningfully benefits from the lessons we've learned these past few weeks. A new normal that doesn't feel abnormal.
And I tell you, the other thing that strikes me as I hear you speak, is actually, I like to think I'm [crosstalk] open to the new and the experimental and the original and all of those sort of things, but funny enough, I think the Australian marketplace in particular will be a great testing ground for that kind of thinking, for that kind of open and agile response to the situation. Because I think that agility's going to be very important to the recovery process, but I think the Australian marketplace is a great testing ground for that thinking.
Mark Bennedick:
Why do you say that? Why do you say the Australian marketplace?
David Zolkwer:
Because I don't think it's set in its ways. If I think about some of the clients I've worked with there, there is humility. I don't mean a sense of I'm not worthiness, but a humility that suggests I might not know the answers and I don't come to the table knowing all the answers. And therefore I'm open to listening to the thoughts and ideas of other people, of new talents outside the industry, within the industry. I think it's more eclectic. Is it a real word to say it's sort of polymathic?
Mark Bennedick:
Yeah. Look, I mean, and on just the purely practical side of things I guess as well, I think luckily we're going to be one of the first countries to come out of it hopefully. I know myself, I've been looking to China who's one of the earlier countries, to see what they've been doing to try and I guess gain some insight into potentially the future in a way. There might be some interesting cases to be looking at around the world, to some of these countries that are opening up and seeing how they're managing and handling things.
Hopefully as a country, Australia does hold some of those values that you're talking about, and I think that does hold it in good stead for the uncertain nature of things, to not be too wed to tradition in a way. We're adaptable and happy for change.
David Zolkwer:
Yeah. I hope so.
Mark Bennedick:
Yeah, that's good.
David Zolkwer:
As I say, I know I sound quite gushy and it's because I enjoy working in Australia. But I think all the things we've talked about in this conversation, whether it's about ... I think Australia is a microcosm of what's going on in the world. The experiences that have happened across Australia in recent years, much of it is biblical. Whether it's the fire and the pandemic and Black Lives Matter and so many deep and profound issues and challenges. I just feel that when we've talked about how can we take something positive from this experience and how can we learn from it, and re-evaluate what matters, and live by a set of values, and communicate in our world, then to convene crowds and to create events, whether it's corporate or commercial or cultural or festivals or product experiences and so on. I think Australia is a wonderful testing ground for whether we mean anything we've been talking about, or whether we'll just go back to the old ways of thinking and doing.
Mark Bennedick:
Yeah. It will be a very interesting, interesting time. David, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and chat to me, and I'm really interested to hear some of the things you've been talking about there today. And obviously hugely impressed with all the work that you've done around the globe and the work here in Australia, and will we get you back here anytime soon?
David Zolkwer:
Yeah, hopefully as soon as restrictions are lifted, I am due to be back in Sydney actually, as soon as possible. Yes, I’ll be back there.
Mark Bennedick:
Oh, good. Good, good. Look forward to seeing you. Well, thanks again, and look, don't forget to follow or subscribe to Behind The Experience. If you'd like to know more about Sense and what we do, head to SenseGroup.com.au, and where can people catch you, David, if they want to see some of your work?
David Zolkwer:
I would suggest in the first instance, just look me up on LinkedIn.
Mark Bennedick:
Yep. David Zolkwer on LinkedIn. Look, we'll provide all the links and the show notes for the episode, and thanks for tuning in, and we look forward to having you next time on Behind The Experience.
David Zolkwer:
Thanks, Mark.